|
Post by joachim on Feb 9, 2015 13:29:24 GMT -6
John,
if you're reading this, it would be very valuable if you could share some advice on picking style for fast licks. It could, for example, be in the comments for one of your licks from the homepage. And even it doesn't matter, or if we should just stick meticulously with alternate picking, then it would help to hear it from the horse's mouth...
Best regards Joachim
|
|
|
Post by Phil on Feb 9, 2015 14:41:00 GMT -6
Joachim, I'm not the person who should be answering this since I can't pick very fast. However, not knowing what I'm talking about has never stopped me in the past. Since I took up playing again in Sept 2013, I've tried to stick to alternate picking when doing exercises. I began to notice that I didn't strictly observe it when actually playing, so I started doubting those who advocated strict observance of alternate picking in all situations. I think the people to look to for advice on picking fast are the people who do it the most and the best. I'm thinking of shredders and Gypsy Jazz players. They both say to do the same thing - some form of what's being called "economy" picking. And from what I've read, it may very well be that the shredders got this concept from the Gypsy Jazz guys. In a nutshell you routinely alternate pick except when changing strings - then you use down-strokes when moving from 6th string towards 1st string and up-strokes when moving from 1st string towards 6th string. Now, you could drive yourself nuts strictly applying this concept so you might want to continue practicing alternate picking and also practice sweep picking. Then, don't dwell on how you are picking. When you are proficient at alternate and sweep picking just use whatever comes naturally while playing a lick. I imagine that some super fast runs might actually require some planning on how to pick it most efficiently, but I'm not at that level yet. So, to answer your question I'm starting to believe that "economy" picking may be the answer to playing very fast licks. I came to this conclusion when I saw a Gypsy Jazz guitarist explaining how he was able to play such fast licks, and he said exactly the same thing that I heard shredders like Tom Hess and Mike Philippov say.
|
|
|
Post by Phil on Feb 9, 2015 14:53:23 GMT -6
Joachim,
I want to add one more thing. Every fast picker that I've encountered on the Internet uses heavy picks. Most Gypsy Jazz players use a Wegen pick which is outrageously thick and costs about $15.00 per pick!
|
|
|
Post by joachim on Feb 9, 2015 15:34:37 GMT -6
Joachim, I'm not the person who should be answering this since I can't pick very fast. However, not knowing what I'm talking about has never stopped me in the past. Since I took up playing again in Sept 2013, I've tried to stick to alternate picking when doing exercises. I began to notice that I didn't strictly observe it when actually playing, so I started doubting those who advocated strict observance of alternate picking in all situations. I think the people to look to for advice on picking fast are the people who do it the most and the best. I'm thinking of shredders and Gypsy Jazz players. They both say to do the same thing - some form of what's being called "economy" picking. And from what I've read, it may very well be that the shredders got this concept from the Gypsy Jazz guys. In a nutshell you routinely alternate pick except when changing strings - then you use down-strokes when moving from 6th string towards 1st string and up-strokes when moving from 1st string towards 6th string. Now, you could drive yourself nuts strictly applying this concept so you might want to continue practicing alternate picking and also practice sweep picking. Then, don't dwell on how you are picking. When you are proficient at alternate and sweep picking just use whatever comes naturally while playing a lick. I imagine that some super fast runs might actually require some planning on how to pick it most efficiently, but I'm not at that level yet. So, to answer your question I'm starting to believe that "economy" picking may be the answer to playing very fast licks. I came to this conclusion when I saw a Gypsy Jazz guitarist explaining how he was able to play such fast licks, and he said exactly the same thing that I heard shredders like Tom Hess and Mike Philippov say. Phil, thanks for adding to this. I also imagine that experienced players plan picking just as well as finger positions when practicing something difficult, and I would love to see an example with picking guidelance by John. For example, in BRYCU he gives instructions for up- and down-strokes for difficult lessons with 16th note strums, and some similar guidelines into good picking habits would be wonderful. Right now I try to stick with alternate picking, but it's more or less random whether I start with an upstroke or downstroke, and I tend to alternate regardless of whether I am playing 1/4 or 1/8 notes. I think many players use the down-pick to keep track of the beat, so if a lick starts off-beat, should you then correct picking to start with an up-pick?
|
|
|
Post by cunningr on Feb 9, 2015 17:19:29 GMT -6
Guess I'll chim in also, even with alt picking there are excercises to develop more speed. I actually do speed excersises everyday, I just watched a video from another online instructor that discusses this very topic, apparently there is a top speed you can reach. Basically say pick whole notes 100 bpm apparently playing half notes at 50 bpm is the same effective speed, his excercises have increasing note speed then reducing it but doubling the notes being played. Long way to say you need to practice with a metronome. I basically do four note runs then move up or down a string, gradually speeding up to a point where I mis notes the slow a bit. This is a technique I found in some metal guitar mags. There is also sweep picking as Phil mentioned, also using pull offs can speed your runs. Theory I got in practice not there yet.
|
|
|
Post by jack1982 on Feb 9, 2015 17:53:59 GMT -6
I think I do about what Phil does - it seems like alternate picking but if I actually stop and look at what I'm doing, there's a surprising amount of economy picking going on. Sometimes with really fast stuff I'll be having a problem with picking it, analyze what I'm doing and try other things, and then usually go back to what I was doing in the first place. There's also "inside" vs. "outside" picking; for instance if you're playing on the B and high E, and you pick the high E with a downstroke and the B with an upstroke, that's "inside" picking. If you pick the high E with an upstroke and the B with a downstroke, that's "outside" picking. Sometimes if you're encountering a problem and notice that you're doing it one way, it can help to try it the other way instead.
As far as upstrokes on the upbeat, it really depends on if it's causing a timing issue or not. I much prefer to strum chords on the upbeat with an upstroke, but with solos it doesn't seem to make much difference to me. I've noticed that trying to use upstrokes in a fast passage can really mess up whatever picking pattern you would normally use because you're going up down up down etc. but trying to force in an extra upstroke where it doesn't belong, but that's just if something is really fast.
|
|
|
Post by joachim on Feb 10, 2015 1:03:33 GMT -6
Thanks for the advice. It sounds like I am doing more or less the same thing as Phil and Jack. In "Hard Edge Blues", which I just worked on, I had serious problems getting the runs smooth because I started with a down-sweep over string G-B-E followed by an upstroke on string B, and I simple couldn't get it sounding better no matter how much I practiced it. And it made me realize I should probably think more about picking instead instead of just plucking away mindlessly.
Rich, I also do an alternate picking exercises everyday - and it has certainly helped alot already, but I thought about starting on Blues Licks You Can Use instead of those exercises, so it seemed like a good time to bring up picking.
|
|
|
Post by jack1982 on Feb 10, 2015 6:21:30 GMT -6
I started with a down-sweep over string G-B-E followed by an upstroke on string B, and I simple couldn't get it sounding better no matter how much I practiced it. When I do that lick repeatedly (the very first one in Hard Edge Blues) I notice I'll play it up-down-up on the G, B and E followed by a downstroke on the B for that bend. I don't know if that's just a habit I've fallen into over the years or if it's actually an efficient way to do it.
|
|
|
Post by Phil on Feb 10, 2015 7:00:33 GMT -6
I started with a down-sweep over string G-B-E followed by an upstroke on string B, and I simple couldn't get it sounding better no matter how much I practiced it. When I do that lick repeatedly (the very first one in Hard Edge Blues) I notice I'll play it up-down-up on the G, B and E followed by a downstroke on the B for that bend. I don't know if that's just a habit I've fallen into over the years or if it's actually an efficient way to do it. I don't have a guitar with me at the moment, but I think I do that cliche lick using down strokes on all 4 notes. But I often find myself playing the high E with an upstroke even when a down stroke would make more sense. I also notice that my up strokes sound different than my downstrokes - a thinner sound - probably due to the angle of the pick. So, when I want an accented sound I try to use a down stroke even when the previous note was also played with a down stroke. I think that picking direction only becomes critical when playing a super fast run. Other than that I'm not sure it makes much difference and there are plenty of other things for me to worry about. There are strict alternate pickers who can play very fast, but some of those shredders and Gypsy Jazz guys can play at mind boggling speeds.
|
|
|
Post by jack1982 on Feb 10, 2015 7:17:46 GMT -6
Phil - yeah what usually screws me up when trying to play really fast is when there's a hammer on or pulloff, which allows me to borrow some time from that note to use for the other picked notes, which of course screws up the timing of it and makes it sound wrong. That's what usually leads me to experimenting with different picking patterns. Like maybe downstroke-pulloff-downstroke, forcing me to put a missed upstroke in there to prevent myself from stealing time from the pulloff. Or something like that
|
|