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Post by Phil on Jun 9, 2019 9:13:28 GMT -6
I've been waiting for somebody to get this started. I guess I'll go 1st.
I got in 12 hours last week. That's a lot for me. Still working on Jazz stuff.
5 hours were spent practicing one 32-bar solo. That might sound kind of ridiculous. However, yesterday I was able to play it with another guitarist without screwing up too much. Usually when I play with somebody everything falls apart and I can't play anything that I planned on playing. Apparently, focus and mind-numbing repetition seems to be working for me.
I practiced more with the metronome and play-alongs the past week than I have in a whole year.
Now I just have to record a video to get Jack off my back.
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Post by bluesbruce on Jun 9, 2019 9:24:01 GMT -6
Bad week here - don't think I've picked up the guitar the past 3 days. Just been too busy with a bunch of other stuff. OK, got to get back to it.
Phil, I think you're honing in on the closely guarded, insider secret of guitar skill: "focus and mind-numbing repetition"!
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Post by grampalerxst on Jun 9, 2019 9:28:20 GMT -6
Slim week for me, probably in the 5-6 hour range due to overtime. Someday soon the money won't be worth giving up the guitar time. No real observations, insights, or accomplishments. I'm in a phase where everything sounds flat and lifeless. Just have to have faith that the process will keep me inching in the direction I want to go. Still going all the same things I talked about last week: Electric Gypsy intro and blues phrasing.
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Post by Phil on Jun 9, 2019 9:42:47 GMT -6
Bad week here - don't think I've picked up the guitar the past 3 days. Just been too busy with a bunch of other stuff. OK, got to get back to it. Phil, I think you're honing in on the closely guarded, insider secret of guitar skill: "focus and mind-numbing repetition"!So why is it that almost no online guitar teachers emphasize this? I only occasionally watch YouTube music lessons by non-guitarists. Yet, in these few videos I've heard saxophone and piano teachers stress the importance of repetition many more times than guitar teachers. Maybe the guitar teachers are afraid of losing viewers if they tell people how much hard work is actually involved.
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Post by bluesbruce on Jun 9, 2019 12:00:59 GMT -6
Bad week here - don't think I've picked up the guitar the past 3 days. Just been too busy with a bunch of other stuff. OK, got to get back to it. Phil, I think you're honing in on the closely guarded, insider secret of guitar skill: "focus and mind-numbing repetition"!So why is it that almost no online guitar teachers emphasize this? I only occasionally watch YouTube music lessons by non-guitarists. Yet, in these few videos I've heard saxophone and piano teachers stress the importance of repetition many more times than guitar teachers. Maybe the guitar teachers are afraid of losing viewers if they tell people how much hard work is actually involved. Yeah, I've just about come to the conclusion that watching lesson videos on YouTube is, at best, a waste of time. Those "teachers" are being paid for "views" and "interactions" (likes, channel subscriptions, etc.), NOT for how many people can actually PLAY what they are "teaching". The whole field would be drastically different (or maybe non-existent) if their compensation could somehow be tied to that metric (being able to play what they are teaching rather than just viewing their video). Another inherent problem in the whole Youtube thing is that as soon as you watch one video, you're off to a link of another one, then another, then another... I'm not saying you couldn't learn to play on Youtube, but I think it'd be really hard. I think for me, "self-teaching" with a good progressive book course (like BYCU) is the way to go. Probably the only thing even more effective would be to work with a really good instructor (which may not be easy to find, either). Just my 2 cents...
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Post by jack1982 on Jun 9, 2019 12:04:41 GMT -6
My week wasn't much better than Bruce's - busy with every damned thing under the sun. Working a bit on that challenge, you have to create a backing track and then write a solo to go over it. I threw this crappy backing track together this morning lol (Yeah it really needs to go back to the tonic chord at the end ). Now I've got a few hours to write the solo. Oh well, it's just the first week so I'll have three more weeks to create something presentable.
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Post by Phil on Jun 9, 2019 12:17:14 GMT -6
My week wasn't much better than Bruce's - busy with every damned thing under the sun. Working a bit on that challenge, you have to create a backing track and then write a solo to go over it. I threw this crappy backing track together this morning lol (Yeah it really needs to go back to the tonic chord at the end ). Now I've got a few hours to write the solo. Oh well, it's just the first week so I'll have three more weeks to create something presentable.
Quick question, Jack. Have you always had that keyboard or is it new? Can you give some details about it?
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Post by cunningr on Jun 9, 2019 15:52:12 GMT -6
Well my time was down some also. Instructor has me working in finger picking technique and cleaning up that eagle intro riff. Really busy at work so tired in the evening tough to practice this week.
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Post by grampalerxst on Jun 9, 2019 17:46:10 GMT -6
Not that I have any business offering advice to anyone else, but I think if the repetitions are mind-numbing, they are probably the wrong repetitions. Any time I start getting bored or my mind wanders too much while doing repetitive practice on something, I switch to something different or put the guitar down for a while.
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Post by jack1982 on Jun 9, 2019 19:42:12 GMT -6
Quick question, Jack. Have you always had that keyboard or is it new? Can you give some details about it?
That's a new toy Phil, one of these: www.amazon.com/ONE-Keyboard-Electric-Music-Teaching/dp/B016DOY9UI/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?keywords=the+one+keyboard&qid=1560131028&s=gateway&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1 I spent a good ten minutes (okay, maybe 6 or 7) practicing each day last week to learn that I just learned a minor 7th chord and a dominant 7th chord, moved the minor one from the I to the IV position, moved one key to the right and did my best to change one finger for the dominant 7th V chord lol. You can plug a tablet or phone into it and it's got an app which has a bunch of songs to choose from, and it makes the keys light up so you can learn them. You can even slow down the tempo and stuff. I can do a really, REALLY bad version of Greensleeves using the lighted keys
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Post by Phil on Jun 9, 2019 20:33:49 GMT -6
Not that I have any business offering advice to anyone else, but I think if the repetitions are mind-numbing, they are probably the wrong repetitions. Any time I start getting bored or my mind wanders too much while doing repetitive practice on something, I switch to something different or put the guitar down for a while. It was a word choice for effect, an exaggeration, hyperbole. 3-5 minutes of a short repetitive exercise may be all you can tolerate in one sitting. On the other hand, if a 12-bar Blues solo is still holding your interest and you feel you're still making progress after repeating it for an hour you might want to continue. No way am I suggesting to continue if you're bored. Besides, a lot of repetitive exercises like tremelo picking or a tricky part of a lick can be done without any thought at all while watching TV. From everything I've read and from watching countless interviews it's now clear to me that the musicians at the very top have a higher tolerance for quality repetitive practice than we mere mortals do. They are driven. There's a saxophone teacher by the name of Greg Lutz who will demonstrate a phrase and then say, "Now go practice that about a million times." There's bass teacher on you tube named Jim Stinnett. He basically tells his students the same thing - repeat until you can play it without thinking. All I'm saying is that I don't hear that same emphasis on the need for repetition from very many online guitar teachers. 3 that come to mind are Claus Levin, who's more of a shredder type, and Jazz guitarists Frank Vignola and Jimmy Bruno. On a personal level I can tell you that focusing on just a few things and repeating them seems to be helping me. There's a quote floating around that's attributed to various people, "Amateurs practice until they can play it right. Pros practice until they can't play it wrong." To me that implies a lot of repetition. Repetition that would be mind numbing for the rest of us.
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Post by Phil on Jun 9, 2019 21:14:58 GMT -6
Quick question, Jack. Have you always had that keyboard or is it new? Can you give some details about it?
That's a new toy Phil, one of these: www.amazon.com/ONE-Keyboard-Electric-Music-Teaching/dp/B016DOY9UI/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?keywords=the+one+keyboard&qid=1560131028&s=gateway&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1 I spent a good ten minutes (okay, maybe 6 or 7) practicing each day last week to learn that I just learned a minor 7th chord and a dominant 7th chord, moved the minor one from the I to the IV position, moved one key to the right and did my best to change one finger for the dominant 7th V chord lol. You can plug a tablet or phone into it and it's got an app which has a bunch of songs to choose from, and it makes the keys light up so you can learn them. You can even slow down the tempo and stuff. I can do a really, REALLY bad version of Greensleeves using the lighted keys Looks interesting. Years before I got back into playing guitar I toyed with the idea of getting a keyboard. I probably should have taken that road. What's so nice about the piano is how much easier it is to see the relationship between chords than on the guitar. It's a great instrument to learn and understand harmony. Have fun with your new toy. I need to get one of those.
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Post by grampalerxst on Jun 10, 2019 4:53:15 GMT -6
It was a word choice for effect, an exaggeration, hyperbole. 3-5 minutes of a short repetitive exercise may be all you can tolerate in one sitting. On the other hand, if a 12-bar Blues solo is still holding your interest and you feel you're still making progress after repeating it for an hour you might want to continue. No way am I suggesting to continue if you're bored. Besides, a lot of repetitive exercises like tremelo picking or a tricky part of a lick can be done without any thought at all while watching TV. From everything I've read and from watching countless interviews it's now clear to me that the musicians at the very top have a higher tolerance for quality repetitive practice than we mere mortals do. They are driven. There's a saxophone teacher by the name of Greg Lutz who will demonstrate a phrase and then say, "Now go practice that about a million times." There's bass teacher on you tube named Jim Stinnett. He basically tells his students the same thing - repeat until you can play it without thinking. All I'm saying is that I don't hear that same emphasis on the need for repetition from very many online guitar teachers. 3 that come to mind are Claus Levin, who's more of a shredder type, and Jazz guitarists Frank Vignola and Jimmy Bruno. On a personal level I can tell you that focusing on just a few things and repeating them seems to be helping me. There's a quote floating around that's attributed to various people, "Amateurs practice until they can play it right. Pros practice until they can't play it wrong." To me that implies a lot of repetition. Repetition that would be mind numbing for the rest of us. Okay, gotcha on the hyperbole angle. I'm certainly not arguing against repetition--after all, I'm the guy who's been babbling incessantly about "reps" for the last 6-8 months, and who's practiced the same 2-bar lick from Electric Gypsy at least 30,000 times (conservative estimate) over that stretch. Only 970,000 to go (yeah, I know, the "million" you cited was potentially hyperbole too). But at least as it pertains to me, repeating something without a high level of focus is about the same as not repeating it at all. The only exception is if it is purely a strength-building thing, and in that case the number of reps in a given sitting is by definition pretty limited. It seems we differ in that way (I admit I have some quirks/limitations in my neurology/mechanics when it comes to guitar-specific movements). Luckily I don't watch TV much so there's no conflict in that regard for my time. I would tend to agree that the highest-tier musicians are better at practicing for effect. Many of the best don't even see it as "practice"--something the author of The Practice of Practice (I think) talked about. They are always "just playing" their instruments whether learning, improving, or performing. To me "just playing" implies that high level focus/attention. In other words, a high level of interest. One thing I'm beginning to see is that maintaining high levels of focus ("immersion" is the way I think of it) is itself a skill that improves with, well, practice. By that I mean the more I do it, the longer I can do it, and the better I can do it. It is a skill I failed to develop at that critical juncture of my youth where most high-level musicians went through a period of obsession where they achieved initial competence. Sorry about the misunderstanding.
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Post by jack1982 on Jun 10, 2019 5:39:04 GMT -6
That's a new toy Phil, one of these: www.amazon.com/ONE-Keyboard-Electric-Music-Teaching/dp/B016DOY9UI/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?keywords=the+one+keyboard&qid=1560131028&s=gateway&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1 I spent a good ten minutes (okay, maybe 6 or 7) practicing each day last week to learn that I just learned a minor 7th chord and a dominant 7th chord, moved the minor one from the I to the IV position, moved one key to the right and did my best to change one finger for the dominant 7th V chord lol. You can plug a tablet or phone into it and it's got an app which has a bunch of songs to choose from, and it makes the keys light up so you can learn them. You can even slow down the tempo and stuff. I can do a really, REALLY bad version of Greensleeves using the lighted keys Looks interesting. Years before I got back into playing guitar I toyed with the idea of getting a keyboard. I probably should have taken that road. What's so nice about the piano is how much easier it is to see the relationship between chords than on the guitar. It's a great instrument to learn and understand harmony. Have fun with your new toy. I need to get one of those. Yeah I think if a person were to learn theory on a keyboard, everything would make perfect sense. Here's a basic major triad, if I move this middle note one to the left, oh now it's minor. Add another note over here to the right, now it's a 7th chord, one-three-five-seven, it's all laid out right in front of you lol. None of that nonsense with playing the exact same chord with multiple different fingerings depending on which strings you're playing it on etc.
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Post by Phil on Jun 10, 2019 8:30:34 GMT -6
Gramps,
I also think I misunderstood your post. I was thinking, "This guy is like Mr. Repetition. What's he saying?" I get it now.
I forgot to tell you that I bought (and read) The Practice of Practice back when you mentioned it. I thoroughly enjoyed it.
I've recently been reading a little about child prodigies. Many people believe that it's the parents who push these kids. That may be true in some cases. However, psychologists say that the opposite is more often the case. The parents can't get these kids to stop practicing. These kids are obsessed with attaining their goals. They're driven by their own internal desire. Even the pushiest parents trying to live vicariously through their kids couldn't force these kids to practice the way they do.
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Post by grampalerxst on Jun 11, 2019 5:40:53 GMT -6
The Face is strong with this one.
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Post by Phil on Jun 11, 2019 8:14:24 GMT -6
The Face is strong with this one. Videos like this are just aggravating and kill my desire to continue. This kid can even do the pick-tuck trick to switch between playing with pick and then fingers.
Thanks, Gramps, for ruining my day.
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Post by grampalerxst on Jun 11, 2019 14:41:46 GMT -6
Thanks, Gramps, for ruining my day. No problem. I'm convinced the key to great tone has nothing to do with gear or fingers. It's all in the face. When I see youngsters like this I envision roasting chestnuts over my burning guitars next Christmas! We're on the same page there.
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