wpb compares Microphone and XLR out on his Catalyst amp

wannaplayblues
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wpb compares Microphone and XLR out on his Catalyst amp Nov 19, 2022 14:37:18 GMT -6 bluesbruce likes this

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Post by wannaplayblues on Nov 19, 2022 14:37:18 GMT -6

All,

For *AGES* I have wanted to compare audio of an amp-with-microphone-recording and its XLR out. I did that today!

The Setup
My new Catalyst has XLR out - set to emulate a 1x12 (which it is) and an SM57 microphone in front of it. I also have a Tascam TM-80 condenser microphone (https://tascam.com/int/product/tm-80/top) which I placed at front-and centre of the speaker. As I have only one XLR connector on my USB mixer (which the microphone and amp both need) I recorded them seperately one after the other.

Modificaions
The *ONLY* modification was a need to turn up the channel volume on the USB mixer when recording via the microphone as the level was too low. It was brought up to be in line with the XLR out's audio level, thereby making the result comparable. The results were placed on a single track in the DAW to ensure the same reverb and compression was applied evenly to both.

Results
Click to download the sample file I recorded. I am working on "Getting Funky" and it seemed appropriate to use a BYCU song in this forum

BYCU-Getting_Funky_SAMPLE.mp3 (391.01 KB)

Personal Thoughts
I am very surprised out how similar they sound. The first time played is with the microphone (if you turn up the volume enough, you'll hear the room-bleed of the speakers playing the click and backing track

) while second time is XLR. Clearly the XLR is cleaner as there is no room bleed or spacial/room impact. If I were being pedantic, I'd say the microphone recording was "warmer" perhaps, or lower in tone - but is this due to carpet noise reflection? Is it something that can be reproduced with good EQ to the XLR version?!? I'm no pro, so I can't say.

It has convinced me that I don't really need to record with a microphone as the end product via XLR is close enough for my needs.

What do you think?

"I hear you talkin' son, but you 'aint sayin' nothin'" - Will McFarlane quoting Muddy Waters hearing a really fast guitar player

jack1982
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wpb compares Microphone and XLR out on his Catalyst amp Nov 20, 2022 7:30:11 GMT -6 wannaplayblues likes this

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Post by jack1982 on Nov 20, 2022 7:30:11 GMT -6

To me they sound very close to identical. The microphone might have a bit more bass and a tiny fraction less midrange, but I'm sure a small bit of EQ could remove that difference. For solo guitar, I might like the first one one-half of a percent better, but of course it's all how it sits in the mix with the other instruments.

Anyhow, great sound on both. I always record without a microphone, it just makes everything so much easier and avoids the tangle of cords on the floor etc.

I look to you, and I see nothing
I look to you to see the truth

bluesbruce
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wpb compares Microphone and XLR out on his Catalyst amp Nov 20, 2022 9:33:25 GMT -6 jack1982 and wannaplayblues like this

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Post by bluesbruce on Nov 20, 2022 9:33:25 GMT -6

I agree - they sound very similar. I can hear the mentioned background sounds on the miked sample. I also record everything direct. In my little universe, I think the simplicity far outweighs any perceived difference in sound quality. Mostly, though, I just don't record anything...

Phil
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wpb compares Microphone and XLR out on his Catalyst amp Nov 20, 2022 11:01:59 GMT -6 jack1982 and wannaplayblues like this

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Post by Phil on Nov 20, 2022 11:01:59 GMT -6

To me they sound very similar and very good. The 1st one seems a slight bit "warmer" to my ears. Like Jack said, in a mix with other instruments you'd never hear the difference. I'd go with the XLR since it's easier to set up.

Here's a question for you: Does your mic'd recording sound like it did coming from the amp while you were recording? My last recordings I mic'd my amp but the recorded sound was still quite different from what I was hearing in my room. I don't know if it's due to mic placement, the coloring of the sound from my Focusrite interface, or a combination of both. Bottom line is that I'm never happy with my recorded sound but I do like the sound you get on your recordings.

There's a difference between having 30 years of experience and having 1 year of experience 30 times.

grampalerxst
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wpb compares Microphone and XLR out on his Catalyst amp Nov 20, 2022 11:23:07 GMT -6 Phil and wannaplayblues like this

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Post by grampalerxst on Nov 20, 2022 11:23:07 GMT -6

Yep, they'll sound very similar and if you wanted you could probably make small adjustments to the position of the mic to get them even closer.

What you're talking about as 'carpet noise reflection' is probably what in the modeling world is usually referred to as "early reflections". I'm not familiar with Catalyst, but if Line 6 implemented the cab model portion of the Catalyst direct out path the same way they do with Helix there might be an "early reflection" control associated with it. They are a lot like what you called them in the sense they are often dominated by the sound hitting the floor near the amp and bouncing back to the mic, which happens faster than what we typically think about as reverb which is the sound hitting the farther surfaces (walls, ceiling) of the space and making it back to the mic.

Taking an unrequested stab at Phil's question, a mic'd guitar speaker will almost never sound like the sound in the room. This is the subject of tons of debate in the modeling world, to the point they coined the acronym AITR (amp in the room) for the standing in front of the amp playing experience. Modelers usually add the sound of a mic'd cab to complete the signal chain, which is actually more representative of what we hear on our favorite records. There's an art to mic-ing a guitar cab so it could be simply a matter of experimenting with the mic's position and/or orientation to get a more pleasing recorded sound. But it will probably sound different than the AITR simply because the mic will color the sound, as will it's position. When I play through an amp/cab I often find myself moving around the room because what I hear changes as a function of where I am relative to the amp.

Last Edit: Nov 20, 2022 11:25:16 GMT -6 by grampalerxst

The note being played at this moment *is* the song

wannaplayblues
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wpb compares Microphone and XLR out on his Catalyst amp Nov 20, 2022 11:48:07 GMT -6 Phil likes this

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Post by wannaplayblues on Nov 20, 2022 11:48:07 GMT -6

Nov 20, 2022 11:01:59 GMT -6 Phil said:

Here's a question for you: Does your mic'd recording sound like it did coming from the amp while you were recording? My last recordings I mic'd my amp but the recorded sound was still quite different from what I was hearing in my room. I don't know if it's due to mic placement, the coloring of the sound from my Focusrite interface, or a combination of both. Bottom line is that I'm never happy with my recorded sound but I do like the sound you get on your recordings.

OK, I read your post then did some experimenting. I played back the track and then played the same thing on the guitar via the amp and tried to compare with my ears...

With my speaker setup and the mic I used, yes, it sounds very close - perhaps not as warm (I think less mids) and not as "spacious" as hearing the actual amp. But then, I have no idea through which speakers and setup you hear it - so I can't say if you hear the same as what I hear, ironically. If I play the recording through my phone, it sounds different!

I'm getting to the point that I think to myself - perhaps the guitar recording I hear on YouTube or my favourite song may not have sounded like that in the recording room - even more so now that I am starting to use FX to improve the end production. At some point, I just have to accept it. What does always surprise me is when people say they like the tone or sound I get - I feel I've had to compromise somewhere along the line; perhaps we are just too critical of our own recordings as we're there when it happens, yet other people hear it as a recording and so it sounds like a guitar as they know a guitar to sound on recordings.

That said and done - I do feel the the Catalyst has been the closest to reproduce what I hear from the amp via the XLR out; though I have more experimenting. The default is to simulate a 1x12 (which is what the actual speaker is) but offers emulation of a 2x12 and 4x12 too!!! Not only that, but the default mic it emulates is a SM57 (IIRC) but it also offers another 13... perhaps one of them will sound closer to what I hear in the room?!?

Finally, I have ordered a microphone isolation shield - I'm eager to *hear* if that makes a difference and if I can reduce the room-bleed. It should arrive in the next few days...

"I hear you talkin' son, but you 'aint sayin' nothin'" - Will McFarlane quoting Muddy Waters hearing a really fast guitar player