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Post by Phil on Apr 18, 2014 3:43:58 GMT -6
I have numerous problems with my hands that I won’t bore you with right now, but one of them is that they are small. Now that we have youtube, I see that almost every top notch guitarist has big hands or at least very long fingers. I saw an interview with Jazz guitarist, John Pisano, and the guy's fingers are like 6 inches long!
I recently discovered that guitars come in various scale lengths (OK, so I’m a little slow). I 1st became aware of this in an interview I saw with phenomenal finger style player, Doyle Dykes,. He said he went to a shorter scale length because he was having some hand problems and found the shorter scale length to be less stressful on his fretting hand.
So, I started looking into this yesterday and ran across a Gibson Birdland. This guitar has a scale length of 23.5” which is a full 2” shorter than my Squier Strat and it is supposed to have a thinner neck. It was designed as a Jazz guitar, but I found out that it was the preferred guitar of Ted Nugent – which indicates to me that it is versatile.
To make a long story short, a Birdland is like 10X out of my price range. Does anybody know of any good quality, low priced guitars with a scale length of 23.5? Anybody here play a short scaled guitar?
Phil
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Post by joachim on Apr 18, 2014 4:14:27 GMT -6
Angus Young said in interview I watched that he adjusted his playing style for small hands, but by any measures he is a fantastic guitar player. There are certainly great female guitar players as well, who probably have smaller hands.
One thing that's impossible for me is to play the spread rhythm with the 7th extension near the neck, for example having finger 1 on the first fret and finger 4 on the 6th fret. Any amount of practice is not going to change that for me, so I will have to play something different.
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Post by TommyD on Apr 18, 2014 4:37:17 GMT -6
It would depend on what you're looking for, but the Fender Jaguar has a 24 inch scale. It's not usually a guitar thought of for blues though.
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Post by bluesbruce on Apr 18, 2014 7:21:10 GMT -6
Interesting post, Phil. Here's an interesting article from Stew-Mac about scale length: www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/Fretting/a-scalelength.htmlIf you're not familiar with Stew-Mac, they're are a luthier supply seller. Good place to find supplies, though kind of pricey. This site seems to indicate that Fender Duosonic and Mustang had an even shorter (22") scale length. I wasn't really aware of this "feature" of the Byrdland, but I'm one of the "big hand guys". Unfortunately, big hands alone do not a good player make... Bruce
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Post by Phil on Apr 18, 2014 7:58:31 GMT -6
Angus Young said in interview I watched that he adjusted his playing style for small hands, but by any measures he is a fantastic guitar player. There are certainly great female guitar players as well, who probably have smaller hands. One thing that's impossible for me is to play the spread rhythm with the 7th extension near the neck, for example having finger 1 on the first fret and finger 4 on the 6th fret. Any amount of practice is not going to change that for me, so I will have to play something different. Thanks, Joachim. I'll have to find that interview. I was going to ask if anyone knew of any well known guitarists with small hands. I know that there are some female classical guitarist who have made a name for themselves, but not too many Blues and/or Rock guitarists. Bonnie Raitt and Etta Baker come to mind. Bonnie primarily plays slide and Etta Baker did not have particularly small hands. She could finger 2 adjacent strings with one finger - an E chord ,for example, she could finger the E and B notes with just the TIP of her middle finger not bending it to make a barre. B.B King can also do this. As much as I complain about my small hands, believe or not, I can make that stretch (well at least from the 3rd fret - don't think I ever had a reason to try it at the 1st fret). That's probably from my Flamenco guitar days where I really had to stretch. However, there are a lot of more mundane things that I can't do. I have to be very careful about putting pressure on my left thumb in certain positions due to arthritis in the base of my left thumb. So a full barre, for example, is out of the question. This is why I'm thinking about a shorter scale guitar with a thin neck - I'm thinking that I may be able to do the thumb over 6th and maybe even the 5th string thing, which is impossible on the Strat. I want to point out that I'm not whining or trying to make excuses for my playing - I usually find a way to work around my limitations. I'm just trying to find the easiest way to do it. Phil
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Post by Phil on Apr 18, 2014 8:07:28 GMT -6
It would depend on what you're looking for, but the Fender Jaguar has a 24 inch scale. It's not usually a guitar thought of for blues though. In searching around I ran across a post where a guy claims he put a Jaguar neck on a Strat. I'm not sure if that would work. It seems to me that the bridge would not be in the right position. But I don't know enough to know for sure. Would anybody have thought a Birdland could be used to play hard rock? I think the Strat was originally marketed to country players. I bet Buddy Guy could play blues on a Jaguar. Phil
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JohnG
Full Member
Posts: 193
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Post by JohnG on Apr 18, 2014 8:28:57 GMT -6
Hi Phil,
You might try an Epiphone Dot (335 type) or Casino. They have something like a 24 1/2" scale, but they also have thin necks which may help. Also, the 60's neck profile Les Paul Studio may help. Again, 24 1/2" scale, but thinner profile. I don't know of any shorter scale necks like you find on the Byrdland (didn't even know it was that short.
Jazzmasters have a great sound for blues and jazz.
Bottom line is, scale and profile do make a big difference. A Strat neck is bigger and beefier. I found that I over-played my Gibson ES-335 (too hard) after playing my Strat.
Keep looking around.
JG
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Post by Phil on Apr 18, 2014 8:36:33 GMT -6
Thanks for the input, John. I'll check those out. A Jazzmaster was actually the 1st electric guitar I bought when I was about 14 years old. I bought it used around 1966 and also bought a used Fender Twin. Sure wish I had those now.
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Post by joachim on Apr 18, 2014 8:49:09 GMT -6
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Post by Phil on Apr 18, 2014 12:39:57 GMT -6
Interesting post, Phil. Here's an interesting article from Stew-Mac about scale length: www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/Fretting/a-scalelength.htmlIf you're not familiar with Stew-Mac, they're are a luthier supply seller. Good place to find supplies, though kind of pricey. This site seems to indicate that Fender Duosonic and Mustang had an even shorter (22") scale length. I wasn't really aware of this "feature" of the Byrdland, but I'm one of the "big hand guys". Unfortunately, big hands alone do not a good player make... Bruce Bruce, Thanks for the very informative link. Very interesting. I wish I had known something about scale length when I got back into playing and bought my guitar 7 months ago. Based on John's recommendations, I looked into the Epiphones and found something that caught my eye - an ES-339 Pro. Much like a 335, but with a smaller body which would probably be more comfortable for me and at a price that's accessable (as are the ones that John recommended). An Epiphone ES-339 Pro is now on my wish list. Speaking of big hands - I was watching a video the other day of Albert King. The guy was overall big - like 6'6" and his hands just look enormous on the neck of his Flying-V. I suppose when your hands are that big it creates its own set of problems. You gotta check out John Pisano - I swear this guy has the longest fingers I've ever seen. Phil
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Post by Phil on Apr 18, 2014 12:41:04 GMT -6
Joachim,
Thanks for the link to the Angus Young interview. I'll check it out later tonight.
Phil
PS. I was surprised to see that the scale length wasn't mentioned on the Epiphone web-site.
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Post by licoricepete on Apr 18, 2014 17:07:50 GMT -6
Phil, here is a list of some of the scale lengths of various guitars. I have a schecter which is a short scale guitar but they are pricey. The shorter scale guitars are harder to play from the 12th fret and up. The frets are so close together it makes it hard for me to play one after I have played my strat. You might want to look at ESP LTD, some of their guitar are reasonable priced and they do make some short scale guitars.
I hope this helps and good luck in your search.
LP
20.7 in (527 mm): Rickenbacker Electro (student model) Es-16, Rickenbacker 1996, 320 and 325, notably John Lennon's most famous guitar Squier Bullet Mini
22.2 in (564 mm) Ibanez Mikro GRGM21
22.5 in (572 mm), known as "3/4 scale" in Fender sales literature: Fender Duosonic Fender Musicmaster Fender Mustang Fender Some Musicmaster II and Duosonic II
22.72 in (577 mm): Fender Stratocaster Junior
22.75 in (578 mm): Gibson 3/4 scale Les Paul Junior and Gibson Melody Maker Ibanez Mikro RGM55 Squier Mini
23.5 in (597 mm): Gibson Byrdland
24 in (610 mm), confusingly called "full scale" in Fender sales literature: Brian May Red Special DGW (Durango Guitar Works) All models Fender Bronco Fender Jag-Stang Fender Jaguar Fender Mustang most models, including current production Fender Most Musicmaster II and Duosonic II Ibanez ORM1
24.5 in (622 mm): Mosrite guitars Paul Reed Smith 245 series guitars Paul Reed Smith Santana Signature series
24.6 in (625 mm): Gretsch most electric guitars
24.75 in (629 mm): Epiphone most electric guitars (including Casino, G-310, G-400) ESP Maverick now it calls ESP MV Fender Cyclone Fender Stratosonic Fender Tele-Sonic Gibson most electric guitars (including Les Paul, most Les Paul Juniors, Flying V, Explorer, SG, Firebird, ES-175, ES-330, ES-335) Gibson ES-150 (original version) Gibson L-20 Acoustic Godin most electric guitars Guild most electric guitars Ibanez Artcore series Rickenbacker most electric guitars (including 330, 340, 350, 360, 370, 380, 620, 650, 660)
25 in (635 mm) Danelectro guitars Dobro resonator guitars Patrick Eggle most electric guitars Paul Reed Smith most electric guitars
25.125 in (638 mm): Vox Virage II Vox Virage Series 77, 55, 33, 22
25.2 in (640 mm): Selmer Maccaferri Grande Bouche Model
25.5 in (648 mm), closest to the classical guitar scale: Fender most electric guitars (including Esquire, Telecaster, most Stratocasters, Jazzmaster) Fender Stagemaster 24 Fret Guitars Gibson L-5 Gibson Super 400 Gibson Johnny Smith Model Gibson J-30 Gretsch some models Ibanez most electric guitars Jackson most electric guitars Kramer Striker Schecter 6-string electric guitars Squier most electric guitars Steinberger most electric guitars
26.38 in (670 mm): Selmer Petit Bouche Model and most Mirecourt-era Gypsy Jazz guitars
26.5 in (673.2 mm) Chapman Guitars ML-7 (both models) Jackson Several 7 and 8 string models including DKA7, DKA8, SLATTXMGQ3-7, and SLATFXQMG 3-8 Schecter 7-string electric guitars
27 in (686 mm) Agile All models ending in 27. First number is string count. So 627, 727 .. 1027. Carvin DC7X 7-string and DC800 8-string guitar ESP Stephen Carpenter baritone models Fender Jaguar Baritone Special HH (tuned B-B) Gibson Buckethead Signature Les Paul (24 fret oversized Les Paul opposed to traditional 22 fret) Ibanez RG2228 8-string guitar (tuned F#-B-E-A-D-G-B-E) Jackson B7 7-string and B8 8-string guitars Jim Soloway guitars
28 in (711 mm) Schecter 8-string electric guitars
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Post by Phil on Apr 18, 2014 17:55:03 GMT -6
Pete,
Thanks for that info. John ought to make a sticky of your post for future newcomers with questions about scale length.
20.7 on that Rickenbacker? Wow, that's really small.
I saw Mountain play live a couple of times back in the bad old days. At the time, big Leslie West played a Les Paul Junior (22.7" according to your chart). It looked like a little toy in his hands. But he was sure able to pump some good sounds out of it.
Phil
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Post by Marc on Apr 19, 2014 8:18:53 GMT -6
I was going to recommend the Rickenbacker. i picked on up once and it was really had to play just because the scale was so small. I had an buddy whos uncle was in a classic rock cover band and he played them because he said he had 'short sausage fingers' he could tear it up that thing.
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Post by bluesbruce on Apr 19, 2014 17:01:59 GMT -6
Nice info, Licoricepete! Very interesting thread.
Bruce
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Post by nursedad on Apr 20, 2014 4:37:54 GMT -6
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Post by Phil on Apr 20, 2014 6:07:25 GMT -6
Nice, versatile guitar with lots of good reviews, but the Johnny Hiland PRS Signature Guitar is a little bit out of my price range. I've got my mind set on an Epiphone ES-339 Pro. It's just a matter of me getting clearance from my finance minister. Johnny Hiland is one of those guitarists whose technique is so mind-boggling that the average human being doesn't have a chance of reaching that level of playing ability. I just want to be able to play without making a mistake every 4th note. BTW, it's good to see you back, Nursedad. I wonder what's happened to Grampalerxst? We haven't gotten a weekly update from him in a awhile. Phil
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Post by nursedad on Apr 20, 2014 6:22:00 GMT -6
HeyPhill I wasn't showing the guitar I was just showing his fingers, short and stubby. I can't afford a PRS Core line either nor does my ability justify that expense. BTW PRS does have an SE line that is very affordable and I find the scale length a good comprise between the Strat and Les Paul lengths. I found an SE Custom 24 at GC for just over 400.00 new. These are high quality guitars for the price.
Good to be back (thank you) I have been so busy and I have taken a step back playing wise and have been working on cording and rhythm playing using both BRYCU and Learn and Master Guitar .
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Post by joachim on Apr 20, 2014 6:48:24 GMT -6
Very useful resource, Nursedad. Please share them, if you have other great links like that. The chord shape exercise is really hard for me - something I will add to my workout. Some of justinguitar's lesson are similar: justinguitar.com/en/AA-000-LessonIndex.php#TEI try to do a couple of them as a daily warm up. Thanks, Joachim
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Post by nursedad on Apr 20, 2014 12:23:08 GMT -6
The Power workouts on that site are great, there is a open and bare cord workout
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